breeding from non kc???

hi all

just wanted to see what everyones views on breeding non kc are???? i started this on another thead but thought it would probally be better to have one of its own.

so do people agree or disagree????

i personally think that great if you are breeding kc for show / work / to better the breed - if we breed from our gsd those will be some of the many reasons we decide to bred from her. however breeding from non kc - is it really that bad??? if they are for pet homes then why do they need to be kc??? and to be honest just because they dont have a kc prefix theres nothing to say they are bred in any worse conditions or loved any the less..... i know people say that it harms the breed to breed non kc - but all breed started out as non kc - they had to develop as a breed before they could become registered - like my other breed for example border collies have been a breed for years and years but only more recently become a kc breed. now would it be really wrong of me to breed from my collie???? if they were for either working homes or as pet homes?????? most collies arent registered - and i know very few people who are willing to pay the price for a kc collie as they would rather get a working farm bred one or one from a pet home. not many people see collies as 'show dogs' so for this breed or ones from similar circumstances would it be a bad thing to breed from non kc????

i dont see anything wrong with non KC reg dogs, as i have a non KC rottweiler vegas. when she is old enough i want to breed from her, as i think she is brilliant, she got a great temprement and is not agressive with people and other dogs. like i said in another post i want to get a KC reg male sometime next year to breed with vegas and the only reason i want a KC reg is so that i could possibly show him.
i think that if a non kc dog is of good conformation, has no health problems, has a good temprement and is all round happy go lucky then i dont see any harm in breeding from them. if vegas grows up and ends up having some form of health problem. I.E: hip dysplacia, elbow dysplacia heart condition and so on then i would have her spayed and not breed from her at all, full stop.

like you said susie, all breeds have to be bred for years and years before they are recognised by the kennel club and even then the breed may not get its prefix. i think it's realy a matter of pot luck. i used to have a fabulous patterdale terrier, this breed are not kc reg and i would have loved to breed from him. he had the most excellent personality and temprement. she was all round happy go lucky and loved people and other animals. he lived with our cat molly who he addored and learned to litter train faster with her.

i say as long as the dog is old enough to breed, has a great temprement and is all round happy go lucky, go for it breed from him/her sensibly, but dont over do it. the kennel club reccommends 6 litters per female. and i would definately stick to this over vegas's lifetime if i am to breed from her!

im glad someone else shares the same views as us....... if we do decide to breed it would only be a couple of litters from each, as first and foremost they are our pets 'family'!!!!! Ive already got a collie in mind if we do - its my cousins - he's a little younger than her (so she'll have a toyboy!!!) but he of very similar temperment except hes long furred - so i think they would make a lovely combination as she is so short furred. With Storm though we really need to look around - as if we breed her it will be with KC as she has show winning lines down oneside of her family and working police dogs down the other. Plus you always need to make sure the temperment is right with a gsd - if they are also going to be for pet homes. storm is of a fantasic nature so I wouldnt want to put her to anything less than how she is. temperment and health are my main priorites - looks a bonus!!!!!!!!!!

if you do breed from them, hopefully you will get some lovely pups!

it is wrong to breed unless there is a good reason to do so, because your dog is lovely not a good reason. dogs dont want to be mums it is hard work for them. it can take them months to recover after welping. 6 litters in a life time as kc say is far too many, poor dog will never have a proper life it will just be all about babies babies babies. there are slso too mnay dogs tuck in resuce centres already so i say dont breed unless you have a very good reason to do so, like if you need another working dog, if they were only people who bred we would have less dogs in resuce and plenty left to be pets.

most breeders of kc dogs make a point of finding good homes for there dogs, when the owners have paid £hundrens of pounds for a dog they are less likly to give up and give the dog to a rescue center, its the people who buy dogs when they are pups and cant be arsed looking after them when they are bigger you want to have a go at.

My dogs come with contracts that states they can not be sold on & we will always take them back this way we know they are not in the wrong hands

Ii can not see the problem of breeding non kc reg , my Pepsi was from an non kC reg , agree you have just a pet home so why if your not going to show ect buy a Kc , when they our just as good non KC People can not afford xxx amount of money to buy aKC doesn't mean they won't look after the dog as much just because its not , .So I see no problem with breed either way , I wish many atime I breed Pepsi , her temper is excellent her marking our beautiful and I could of had homes for the 10 times over every one comment on how beautiful her marking are , and asked if I was going to breed her , would of loved to could of kepted one of her pups then

ben83 wrote:it is wrong to breed unless there is a good reason to do so, because your dog is lovely not a good reason. dogs dont want to be mums it is hard work for them. it can take them months to recover after welping. 6 litters in a life time as kc say is far too many, poor dog will never have a proper life it will just be all about babies babies babies. there are slso too mnay dogs tuck in resuce centres already so i say dont breed unless you have a very good reason to do so, like if you need another working dog, if they were only people who bred we would have less dogs in resuce and plenty left to be pets.

Ben the kennel club have a maximum of 6 litter registraions in a dogs life time, doesnt mean the person breeding from their kc reg dog wont breed from it again after this.

Hi, I'm a newbie here!!

I would never ever breed from a non-KC Reg dog or bitch. I feel the responsibilites of breeding are many and too many people just use a bitch on Joe Bloggs dog round the corner and it gets me sooo mad!! We spend many hours of our time picking and choosing a stud dog for our bitch, putting time and effort into breeding in no mean feat. Breeding from any breed requires knowledge of what exactly the dog in question should look like. The KC have breed standards that is a blueprint of what your dog should look like and breeders should be aspiring to breed as close to the standard as possible. Many many times over the years I have looked a rottweiler and thought that it looks nothing like what a rottie should look like, because its been bred by people who now nowt about the breed. If my views upset some folk, so be it!!

Absolutely Maddie. Being involved in rescue - offered up to 15 dogs a day including 6 litters this year because people can't sell them, 90% of those dogs should never have been bred in the first place. The health problems alone let alone the look of these dogs. We get about 1 or 2 dogs a year that look as they should.

I have written a long post in another thread.

agree with maddie & chicco you should never breed from non kc reg dogs............you are only adding to problems within the breed............firstly you cant be sure 100% they are pure bred anyway

I dont see any problems with breeding from non kc reg dogs. As long as all the neccessary precautions are taken I.e - health examinations of the dog and bitch, hip & elbow scoring & bear testing then i dont see any problems with breeding non kc dogs!

Some people who have kc reg dogs get paranoid about non kc reg dogs because they dont have papers telling them where they have come from and what blood line they have got!!!!

As long as you read into breeding your dogs and take all the necessary precautions and dont breed from their dogs just for money then i do not see any problem in breeding from a non kc reg dog!!!

you cant hip & elbow score non kc reg dogs as they xrays are sent to a panel of experts who are involved with the kennel club. people with kc papered dogs aren't paranoid they just like to know the parentage of their dogs. it is easy to make a pedigree up just like it is easy to reg your dogs with the DLRC but to me this is just a quick way for morons to make money they dont care about the breed

well im sorry to tell you this but i have a friend who breeds from her 2 dalmatians who are not kc registered and she had both of her dogs hip and elbow scored so now tell me you cant have them done!!!!
if the dogs are not going to be shown or put into any trial sporting events then not all people kc reg their dogs any way, so not breeding just because they are not kc registered is ludicrous!

some people who dont have kc reg dogs are paranoid and think that non kc reg dogs are just a waste of time, which is totaly not true! i had a non kc reg dog called vegas hense the "website name" and if i had of been able to keep her then i would certainly have thought about breeding from her just as long as everything was ok health wise with her and when she was obviously old enough to cope with having a litter, even if it was only 1 litter! without a boubt! i would certainly not of bred from her if there was the slightest thing wrong with her, as it would not be fair on the pups and i certainly would not breed from her for financial gain but so that she could experience being a mother! we feel the need to experience mother hood and it is only natural for a dog or any other animal to feel the need also to become a mother and have their own off spring!

Sorry Jen, but the Wildheart that replied to your post has been involved with and breeding rottweilers almost as long as you have been alive. Their dogs have been featured in many things and known countrywide. If she says that you cannot hip & elbow score then you can't. You can have hip and elbow x-rays from your vet for sure, but that won't give you the classic "score" system.

As for breeding with Vegas - understanderbly this might have been in a couple of years time when the situation had changed but when you breed a dog you MUST if you have any conscience whatsoever put out contracts that you will take your puppies back if they ever need rehoming. As Jazzanova has said. You MUST if you have any conscience have a long enough list of people, and I mean good people that will have your puppies. Believe me, half of them will back off or find something else in the meantime.
I have told you that I am very involved with rescue - and we hear all the time of puppies that cannot be sold --- who then either come into rescue (which blocks our system) or sold to an "anyone", and then the dog is likely to end up back in rescue later.
As for rescue - all of us have to turn dogs down every day. We cannot take them all. Our decisions have to often be - who lives - who dies. Simple as that.

We home on very responsibly, and I have to say that most rescue policy is not to home to under 25's as their situation is usually not stable enough to guarantee a lifelong home. We never home to private rented properties as landlords often won't allow pets, and if that one does then the people might not find one that does if they have to move. We don't home to anyone at work full time, and we don't home to people that will have a dog live outside. All of this hopefully to ensure the dog will not come back AGAIN.

Ben - are you involved with a rescue as you appear to have a passion about overbreeding like me. Can't help it when you see the 1000's of unwanted dogs.

Jazzanova ---- we at www.rottweilerrescuetrust have got a page going where breeders who will take their dogs back can put their names down so that we know if one of your dogs came in and also showing a responsible attitude towards breeding.

i have had several dogs and only one was kc reg and she was a miniture yorkshire terrier, i think thatt it itt up to the idividual wheather you wish to have a kcreg or not and what you need this for.i;show or domestic

as chicco says you can have all the xrays done but for them to be scored under the bva scheme they need the dogs & the parents names & kc reg numbers so it sounds as though your friend is falsifying documents. if anyone truely loves their breed they would only have a litter to better the breed NOT just because they think it is right to become a mother & yes it is down to people to choose whether the dog is kc reg or not but there are plenty of dogs in rescue including puppies that have been homed to idiots that can't cope & the so called caring breeders wont take them back............

If i still had vegas and once she was old enough i bred from her and had people waiting for her pups! I would do the responsible things i felt were neccessary at that time; i.e - vaccinations,wormings, fleaing, etc etc but i would also have a written contract with every responsible awaiting owner to say that at any point in time i would take the puppy back without hesitation. I no that alot of people would not take back the puppies they have sold but i know for a fact i would just so i could find a new permanent home!
Not everyone is a moron and i for one certainly am not, just because i am young doesnt mean i dont have a brain or know what i am talking about! I went to college and university to study animals and guess what was on my course? BREEDING along with many other things! And i am hoping to become a veterinary nurse so i am always looking to learn and share my experiences and opinions with others.

after reading these comments i feel that this little debate is nothing more than a little click. i think if you continualy breed from the same line of dogs you are eventualy only going to have throw backs. i personally feel that this is only a money makng scheme and people are only in it for a fast buck .if people genuanly bothered about there pets they would not be bothered where they came from or who had what sire or grading system in there genetics. like i said previously i have a collie cross jack russell and he has a few problems but there will never be a better friend than him. the amoutnt of people on george over the years who have wanted a dog just like him are too many to mention. he himself was a rescue dog and only had sevendays to live and he is seventeen now. this remindes me of the old fashioned tier system...lower class, middle class and lower class.

the bottom bit should say; lower class ,middle class and upper class.

Sorry Minnie but I totally disagree.

Apart from the look deteriorating greatly from how they should look which although it doesn't matter to the individual dog and the owner of that dog, it does matter to the breed and the future of it.

Also the health implications are the problem.

I do not breed and I do not show, but I know good breeders and I watch the show dogs. Who would want to go away from that look which is what we all know from good pictures of rotties.

The ones that we often see through rescue are nowhere near that look and usually with the health problems that go with it. Apart from things like rear dew claws, we have HD, ED, Entropian, bad bites which can cause tooth problems, lots of ear infections which can often be through intolerances passed on through breeding, plus other breeding faults which lead to health problems such as long backs, weak pasterns -- the list is endless.

The girlie I am fostering at the moment is just about to have dew claws removed and possible entropian op whilst being spayed.

When you breed from any dog especially when you inbreed they can have many unforseen problems occur whether they have been health checked or not! There can be all sorts of problems occure when you breed from any dog or animal. Just because some breeders line breed their dogs with either grandmother & grandson, or grandfather with grandaughter doesnt mean that you wont get any through backs!

Thats why its good to have a record of your dogs ancestors so you dont inbreed or breed to close in the lines you dont get this from non KC registered dogs very often then you have to decide if the pedigree is correct

the majority of rotts that are not kc reg come from kc reg dogs in the first place but the breeders have not lifted the restrictions & therefore when they have been mated the pups end up not being kc reg.

going down the lines of inbreeding how do you know you are not using litter brother & sister if they dont have pedigrees & kc papers